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[INFO] Debian direct derivates vs Rebuilt derivates, Stable/Testing and so on...

Started by Capitain_Jack, December 19, 2017, 03:15:30 PM

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I can see, for over years now, good people from Debian official forum and others being such unhelpful because "It's not Debian" and using the "Don't break Debian" official documentation to support their not so complete interpretation of it.

I've been a Debian user since it's first versions, when you had to format and install it over text interface, and this one thing always annoyed me.
As I struggle to gain knowledge of Debian and began understanding it's flavors, life cycle, directives and so on, I noticed that people in general are misunderstanding the Derivative word meaning, making it into one and only signification, and turning what should and could be a much bigger and better community than the other OSes are into a segregate community, based on a dictated purity level.

The enemy (you know who pays propaganda for killing linux reputation... wants us divided, so it's easier to beat us.

First let's make it clear that the "Pure Debian" concept is also misunderstood, since for being Pure, one shall not install any non-free package, so forget about any drivers and whatsoever uses proprietary drivers, libraries or software (notice that what is left is indeed the only one pure debian) that is not strictly into the free version.

QuoteDebian (/ˈdɛbiən/)[4][5] is a Unix-like computer operating system that is composed entirely of free software, most of which is under the GNU General Public License and packaged by a group of individuals participating in the Debian Project

This supposed to be our spirit:
Quote...We must talk about freedom

Estimates today are that there are ten million users of GNU/Linux systems such as Debian GNU/Linux and Red Hat "Linux". Free software has developed such practical advantages that users are flocking to it for purely practical reasons.

The good consequences of this are evident: more interest in developing free software, more customers for free software businesses, and more ability to encourage companies to develop commercial free software instead of proprietary software products.

But interest in the software is growing faster than awareness of the philosophy it is based on, and this leads to trouble. Our ability to meet the challenges and threats described above depends on the will to stand firm for freedom. To make sure our community has this will, we need to spread the idea to the new users as they come into the community.

But we are failing to do so: the efforts to attract new users into our community are far outstripping the efforts to teach them the civics of our community. We need to do both, and we need to keep the two efforts in balance....

So, let's talk about a Taboo: A direct derivation from Debian, witch uses Debian main packages and repository, is Debian on it's root, and probaly is just programs and DE's that differ that distro from Debian, so came on, If you take a "pure debian" iso, put on a driver, you're not pure debian anymore, put on anything out of Debian free repository (yes, including the non-free Debian repository) than is not "pure debian" anymore, than, that direct derivation, is not "Pure Debian" also, and it's ok!

Quote...A common, but not unique pattern for derivatives is that of reusing/rebuilding most of the official Debian packages and adding some custom packages of their own....

The problem start when people asks help for a direct derivate Debian distro at the official forum, and people start shouting that it's not Debian and blocking help to these users into their forum.

Quote"...Debian derivative model: uses Debian binary packages and adds new source/binary packages ..."

If one person buy one Ferrari car, and than put a Wolksvagen multimedia central on it (whatever), put on Pioneer Bass Speakers, put LCD screens into the dash, etc.. than that Ferrari is not a Ferrari anymore?? (direct derivations, like SparkyLinux) Also you know that if your multimedia central burns, is not Ferrari fault right?

Let's make clear that it's totally different like SsangYoung cars, made by china with a Mercedes engine, is that a Mercedes? NOO! Only uses the engine of it (Based derivation, recompiled from source and heaving it's own main repository, like Ubuntu), but have it's own maker. Than you know that if something else than the engine fails, it's not Mercedes fault, right?

So let's contextualize and make a correct interpretation of the "Don't break Debian" documentation:
Quote...The reason things can break is because the software packaged for one Debian release is built to be compatible with the rest of the software for that release. For example, installing packages from buster on a stretch system could also install newer versions of core libraries including libc6. This results in a system that is not testing or stable but a broken mix of the two....

Explaining: If your direct derivation distro OR Debian install (free or non-free, 32bit or 64bit) is based on stable, don't try to install on it a testing/unstable repository software, it'll break. Just keep the same "flavor", like SparkyLinux, witch have all three flavors.

Stable always with Stable, never mixed up.

The most important part, witch those "pure debian" paladins don't read, is:
Quote...Don't blindly follow bad advice...
...It's better to take the time to figure out the correct way to do something first than spending even more time fixing a broken system later. You would not let some random stranger feed your baby; do not execute commands without first understanding what they do....

Linux is different from Windows, do not expect to follow a routine of ok> ok> okay to install, like all the best things in life, you need to know better not to mess up.

So they don't read, do not understand completely how your derivation IS DEBIAN on it's root and stay closed mind into saying you should be "Pure Debian" before asking help on the Debian forum, but when the package or part of the system that is problematic is on Debian repository, you can also ask for/use help into their forum, just keep in mind that they are closed minds and won't help any honest direct derivation user.
"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds."
Albert Einstein


Yes, how to move forward. 

Debian forum, they say straight up that they prefer testing/sid questions in irc or maiing-lists.  Years ago I was not impressed by what I saw as slightly racist comments via modifying words to somehow sound like an imaginary African language in comments about Ubunu.  In my limited visits these days, I do not see that any more, but still the Debian forums is not my cup of tea. 

#debian-next   When this computer was sill in "pure" testing (it is stable now) and my sparky' or siduction box or netbook  had problems, of course they would answer if framed with debian output.  The trick is how to post such that you sound competent, pastebin the correct info but not put in items that will flag you as having a couple extra repos.  Obviously when things are going wrong, lurking and watching is not a problem. 

The CunchBang #! forums were fairly agnostic for helping with Debian, ah those were the days.  I learned and was helped much over the years.  They had to change, one person stepped down and the successor is   

Been awhile but HoaS helped me with a unison problem; as did pavroo.
If nothing else, a search there can be helpful.  Some of them will still answer Debian with a couple extra repos and they have threads for testing/sid problems. 

I look at the Siduction forums and will at times pass on possible problems to this forum that might surface.  When things go #! in my testing, I go there first to look.  A lot of them are active in #debian-next irc.  No one ever mentions that they are not "true debian" when they help others.  However, my opinion is that asking sparky questions in the Siduction forum will not be productive.       The thing is, they just might be the ones to answer a question in #debian-next. 

My sig, I am not changing it.  Spending some time in years past in #debian-next I have seen some hideous gooey ugly things happen when individuals pull in many, many repos - especially Ubuntu repositories.  Some things can not be undone.  If a system is totally broken and no one else answers, I might put a link  to the FrankenDebian in a a reply.  There are some really good things on that page for us in testing for good practices.   However, a few repositories that were carefully selected is not a problem to me. 

To get more people in, and have a high rate of help, hmm.  Crunchbang excelled at debugging sound issues and was a goto place for OpenBox.  I will help with lxqt at times.  I will post snippets about systemd basics, etc.   Things that might help draw people in are help with flatpak and Calamares.  We should be a place to go to for help with wine in Debian testng.  If we became the place for people who are trying out Wayland in testing,  not a bad thing. 

edit - not sure why the Bunsen url is coming out as "code"  peace out.

Search forum for "More info easier via inxi"    If requested -  no inxi, no help for you by  me.

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